Thoughts on Jack Kirby and "Tales to Astonish" by Ronin Ro

Karen: Recently, Doug and I read a book called “Tales to Astonish – Jack Kirby, Stan Lee, and the American Comic Book Revolution” by Ronin Ro. Sharon had read the book long ago and was the one to encourage us to read it. It chronicles Kirby’s life and also looks at the comic book industry over the years, with a fair chunk of time spent examining the early years of Marvel Comics. Now that we’ve all read it, we’ve decided to do a group review and discussion.

Doug: Many thanks to Sharon, and to the close-out bookseller from whom I bought this tome! It was a steal at $5!! What an interesting resource to have in my library.

Sharon: I had a suspicion you both would be interested in reading this…I’m so glad you picked it up! Since I’ve waxed poetic many times about the subject of Kirby and Marvel for the past couple of years on the Avengers Assembled boards, it’s exciting to see the two of you avail yourselves of the information in Ro’s book. His book provides a readable, basic introduction to that era.

Karen: While I had known some basic history in this area, this book really filled in a lot of details. There are quotes from many comics professionals and a lot of ‘behind the scenes’ stories. It’s a fun, quick read, despite some rather pedestrian writing by “Ronin Ro” (what a goofy pseudonym). My biggest complaint about the book itself is the lack of any annotation – no footnotes or even simple attribution of quotes in the text itself. There’s also no bibliography or index! From what I gather, many of the quotes in the book have been found in other sources. So it may be that the book is a hodge podge of previous works, all lumped together here.

Sharon: The lack of “academic annotation” is maddening, but he does list the names of people whom he says he consulted for the book…plus there’s a great list of source material, items no self-respecting comic historian or even plain ol’ fan should be without!

Doug: I have to tell you that as a history teacher and reader of many research-based books that I was academically offended by this book. Hear me: it’s an interesting read, a serious grabber! But I simply could not believe that any author would think it satisfactory to make such claims as were made, to offer quotes from particular people – some matter-of-fact, some to be honest quite damning toward other players – and never cite the source of the information. I’m serious – if Ro was a student in one of my college-bound classes and turned in a paper like this he would fail solely on his lack of referencing.

Doug: Saying that, I suppose I (we, if I can speak for my colleagues) am guilty of throwing my two cents into these discussions each week without directly citing sources for information that might not be common knowledge to our average reader. However, you the reader have the ability to leave me (us) a comment – I certainly feel I would owe an inquisitor the courtesy of revealing any source material I use in making these wonderful posits!

Doug: I especially liked that Ro began the story in the Golden Age, an era of comics history that I know too little about. One of the interesting facts about the Golden Age that continues to stand out for me is the proliferation of Jewish creators working in the industry: Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Jerry Siegel, Joe Shuster, Will Eisner, Gil Kane, and on and on. As a history teacher who focuses on Holocaust study, I just find this an interesting legacy – that these men have given me one of the loves of my life.

Karen: The focus is on Jack Kirby, and he appears to be a somewhat tragic (almost pathetic) figure. It’s clear that Kirby never felt like he got the recognition he deserved. Certainly one could argue this was true. It’s clear today that both he and Stan Lee – and not Lee alone – were responsible for the creation of the Marvel Universe, and that Kirby was far more involved in plotting stories than originally thought.

Karen: It does seem like Lee got most of the glory in the past, but in recent years he seems to be more willing to share credit for the characters with the artists. But back in the late 60’s, seeing Lee get so much attention obviously drove Kirby to prove he could stand on his own, and he left Marvel for DC, where he thought he’d have a chance to create his own universe with the New Gods. But I think his obsession with being successful on his own probably made it impossible for him to ever really succeed again.

Doug: Several weeks ago when we did the 1st Appearance post about the Incredible Hulk, I cited Origins of Marvel Comics as my source for the material. In that book, each origin story was introduced by Stan relating the formative conversations/presentations of these iconic Marvel characters. As Ro points out in this text (over and over), Stan was quick to take credit for just about every idea that became a cornerstone of the Marvel Universe. In fact, Jack is said to have been thoroughly disgusted at Stan’s boldness in allowing only his name to appear on the cover of all of the Origins series books. As Karen said, it was just another thorn in Jack’s side, another source of hurt feelings and long-festering animosity.

Karen: When I first started reading comics, Kirby was already at DC. From reading reprint titles like Marvel’s Greatest Comics, I knew who he was and that he was the artist behind all the great Marvel heroes. But I guess I didn’t feel any special reverence for him. In fact, when he returned to Marvel in the 70’s, I found myself unimpressed with most of his work. The primary reason was that his writing was terrible. There, I’ve said it. I know some Kirby fans love everything he did, but his writing was excruciating. I still feel annoyed when I think of his “Mad Bomb” story in Captain America. It was obvious to me, even at a young age, what Lee had brought to their collaborations.

Doug: I, too, came to know Kirby in the pages of Marvel’s Greatest Comics. At the time, Rich Buckler, then George Perez, was penciling the Fantastic Four. While there was no doubt that Kirby’s books were full of fast-paced action in the mighty Marvel manner, I didn’t think his rendering fit in with what I was then-accustomed to: Buckler, Perez, Sal Buscema, John Buscema (who interestingly enough, would have been down my list at this time), Ross Andru, Jim Aparo, Joe Staton, and Dave Cockrum. Kirby’s fingers were square (a point made in Ro’s book, specifically in discussion about Kirby near the end of his career), his facial expressions sometimes extreme. A few years later, when (as you say, Karen) Kirby was given Captain America, his style was so dramatically different that I could hardly stand it. I bought the Marvel Treasury Special Captain America’s Bicentennial Battles, but didn’t appreciate it. Now, many years removed, I can say that I have an appreciation for this material, and truly treasure it as representative of the twilight of the King’s career.

Karen: Despite my dislike of his writing, I feel badly for how Kirby was treated when he returned to Marvel. It seems like many of the younger staff had no respect for him, which is ludicrous when you consider he built the universe they were playing in. Granted, the man needed a good scripter to work with, but the kind of petty acts that occurred during his second tenure at Marvel are inexcusable. And of course, on top of all that was the problem with getting his original art returned, which became huge and the over-riding cause in Kirby’s later years.

Doug: As Sharon so aptly paid homage to men like Neal Adams (in our earlier series of X-Men discussions) for their work in obtaining creator rights/benefits, it is a shame that Kirby’s pages were stolen from Marvel and ultimately from him. Anyone who peruses the original art section on Ebay knows that it is difficult to find any Kirby page that sells for less than $800. Literally, he was deprived of a treasure worthy of a King’s ransom (how’s that for a pun??).

Karen: One of the most shocking things to me was that artists would steal other artists’ original art and sell it! Both John Verpoorten and Gil Kane are mentioned as having done this. How low can you get?

Doug: Yes… “snake” was a term that leapt to mind.

Karen: Despite adversity, Kirby was incredibly productive. It’s mind-blowing, especially in the context of today’s artists, that Kirby would produce 15 pages of artwork a week! I imagine most pros today don’t produce 15 pages in a month. Besides that, he was also designing characters all the time, and in the early days of Marvel, he was laying out a lot of the issues, and doing covers! When he finally got his original art back from Marvel, it’s shocking to think that the 2100 pages he did get back were only a small fraction of what he produced over the years.

Doug: Karen, your guess of 15 pages a month is not far off. As you know, a standard comic these days is 20 pages (although with the recent habit of making the former page one splash a recap page, new art drops to 19 pages), which comes out to five pages a week. And given how many books today have a tough time staying on any kind of regular shipping schedule, you are right that today’s pencillers can’t seem to get it done at even what would have been a snail’s pace for Kirby.

Karen: I’m left with mixed feelings after reading this book. While it’s interesting to learn about what was going on in the comics industry, it does shatter the illusion of the ‘happy’ Marvel bullpen. All those Marvel Bullpen Bulletin pages gave me the impression that Marvel was a wacky, fun place to work. But the more I read about what was going on, the more disabused I become of that notion. I’m sure there were good times but, like any workplace, it had its share of problems. I guess despite all this, I still find I can enjoy the stories from that era, even if I know better now about what was really going on behind the scenes.

Doug: I wonder if it was Stan who wrote the copy for the entire Bulletins pages. They certainly read with that Stan Lee bombasticism that we all knew and loved – but I doubt that, given all of his other responsibilities, he had the time to churn out that propaganda each month.

Sharon: According to Danny Fingeroth in Write Now! #18: yes, Stan wrote all the copy, at least up through 1972. For more details, see the great article by David Kasakove, "Finding Marvel's Voice: An Appreciation of Stan Lee's Bullpen Bulletins and Soapboxes.” I’d mentioned this article on the AA! boards not too long ago and it’s a fantastic read.